is ponoko craft or not?

topic posted Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:01 PM by 
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if you design something, but don't make it yourself, is it crafting? think of the hand-crafter who started out making all her own stuff, then grew to hire crafters to help her out... and if she uses a machine to help make things faster.... then take this idea further to where the machine is doing all the work for her... think of starting out hand-painting tshirts, then using a small screen to silkscreen them yourself... then buying a silkscreen printer for your garage... then just ordering them done by a company.... now let's take it even further... to ponoko.com

is this craft? please discuss.
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  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:20 PM
    No. That's ordering highly customized goods, no different than collaborating with a dressmaker, or more like ordering a custom motorcycle, where one choses every component. Custom cars can be had this way too. I'm sure there's a lot of other examples, bikes are an industry I'm very familiary with. But there are several motorcycle companies that make $30K-$100K bikes with that premise.
    • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

      Fri, April 18, 2008 - 10:15 AM
      I am on the fence about this. My first instinct is to state clearly "No" like Sooz... but when I think about it, I come up with these ideas:

      So far, it seems that most people are ordering custom cut elements that they then fashion into a necklace somehow. see these examples:

      www.ponoko.com/showroom/1...PYeOAi/1169
      www.ponoko.com/showroom/h...ewelry/1198
      www.ponoko.com/showroom/shazbot/1187

      To me, this seems even more creative than someone who buys beads at a store and turns them into a necklace... these creators are designing the elements that will create the necklace, not just selecting from pre-existing inventory at the bead store... (I am not a necklace maker, so I might just be talking out of my a** here)

      But for the necklace designs, I think ponoko is craft.

      Or take the example of the ring, where someone has envisioned the elements that would create the ring, designed them, had them cut out and then assembled them together into a ring:

      www.ponoko.com/showroom/jjohnsen/1183

      She might have been able to fashion the two pieces out of balsawood or fimo or something for her prototype... but in the end, if the design really needed to be made of lucite, then at some point, a machine would have had to cut the pieces of lucite. i think she crafted that ring herself.
  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Wed, April 16, 2008 - 6:21 AM
    I'd say it's a creative outlet. If you have an idea and can figure out how to do it, but you have someone else do the work for you, then you've found a way to make your idea a reality. I believe that crafting is done more by your hand - many of us use machines (like sewing machines and such) to do our crafts, but we actually do them. I've had people ask me to make something that they've given me some specifics about, but I was the one to craft the items out of their ideas (usually adding my own ideas as well as I create the actual item).

    I like the thought of this site though, as it give users a chance to create something (even if not by their own hands) that they might not otherwise be able to without machines. Does that make sense? But, I'd have to agree that it's not "technically" crafting.
  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 10:08 PM
    I think this is craft, but that the craft has shifted more to the computer drawing and less of the assembling of the finished item. There is a definite craft and skill necessary for drawing things in illustration software. The machine does the work of cutting the shapes out, but a human has to tell it what shapes, making practical decisions about how the thing will assemble from flat into 3-D and artistic decisions about the aesthetics of the piece. Obviously, it is less crafted than if someone milled each piece by hand, but it's still crafted somewhere along the line of the process.
    • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

      Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:08 AM
      I'd call it design which is often part of the crafter's process, but not necessarily. As in: I can Design a tapestry pillow and then choose to Craft one myself from wool and fabric or I can Produce a kit by putting all the pieces together in a bag for you to make up yourself. You then could buy my tapestry kit and Craft your own pillow. "Crafted" implies small scale production by a single person or small group (as in a cooperative.) Once you move the production of an item into a factory model (even if your workers are doing home based piece work) it stops being craft no matter how nice it is.

      This is the essence of what the founders of the Arts & Crafts movement like Wm Morris were getting at: to be crafted it must be made by the craftsman. Morris would undoubtedly have argued that Wm Stickley's furniture was not craft (no matter how aesthetically pleasing it was) because it was designed for mass production and made in a factory churning out exact copies one after the other. The point of Craft in an economic sense is the very short 'distance' between the person making the object and the person using it- generally only one or two steps removed.

      But lets not be too pedantic- if you want to design a thing that can only be made in a $100K workshop and you can get someone else to do it then don't worry too much. Call it couture, designer, or art- which are all perfectly valid cousins in the craft family- and go sell it at the craft market.
      • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

        Fri, April 18, 2008 - 8:08 AM
        About 18 years ago, I wanted a quilt. My sewing skills are, er, a little less refined than many of yours, so I was hesitant to begin a project I would never finish. Turned out my then-husband's friend's wife was a quilter.
        She and I met, discussed, went shopping together for fabric, I choose and paid for it, within her parameters. Then we went through her quilt patterns, and she suggested a sampler of pattern blocks. I choose the patterns, she did all the cutting, sewing, filling, finishing work. (I did NOT go so far as to tell her exactly which color should be in each triangle or square.) I paid Janet for her work.
        I was thrilled with the results. I still use the quilt, now it contains some of my less-refined repairs.

        I do not claim to have made it. I say, a friend made it for me, and I got to help design it. She was the crafter.
        • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

          Fri, April 18, 2008 - 10:05 AM
          actually, in that case, she was the technical artist, you were the artist (or technical crafter and designer).... that is, she wouldn't have made that piece except for your vision. she could use it in her portfolio to demonstrate her skills/craftsmanship, but not her creativity. you could use the piece in your portfolio to demonstrate your creativity but not your technical skills.


          • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

            Fri, April 18, 2008 - 10:34 AM
            Lobo, you're being a little generous with me, I think my quilter deserves a great deal of the design credit. For me, it really was about using the right color palette, in the jewel tones, and when we shopped, and she laid out the color blocks, she made the choices that brought out the best in them. Very similar to when another friend made a dress for me. I told her "teal, black, and asymmetrical" and she made the magic.

            With the necklace pieces, I admire the artistry of the pokono designers, but I wouldn't call myself an artist or crafter for wearing it.
            It's the difference between putting together a jigsaw puzzle and flower arranging, if that makes sense.
  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:10 AM
    you can certainly have other people create parts for your craft/art (which is how i would use a service like ponoko), it doesn't detract from the item being hand-crafted any more than purchasing buttons to finish an outfit would. i don't think that takes away from it being an artist-designed piece by having your art/craft manufactured through such a service, as long as you aren't going into large-number production and having it outsourced, and assembled by people who don't care what the end product is ... i think for a piece to be considered a craft/art it needs to have the feeling that the artist who designed and created it has put their love and soul into it. what tools they used is secondary.
  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:30 AM
    This is similar to the debate between who the real artist is - there are painters who design the piece of work, but they do not actually paint, an assistant or intern does. This is how Takashi Murakami paints (think Louis Vuitton bags). www.takashimurakami.com/ He makes giant mural pieces where he designates the exact color for the painting for each part (he has a giant schematic that is translated onto a wall with numbers and all and then people paint in the exact colors). He's not the only painter that does it, but he's definitely one of the most well known painters that does this: www.nytimes.com/2005/04/03...RAKAMI.html

    Sculptors often to do the same thing like Chihully with this glass exhibits: www.flickr.com/photos/ixt...4208771112/ He doesn't make each piece, but he conceptualizes and it's all done under his name so it's considered his creation/craft.
    • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

      Tue, April 22, 2008 - 2:55 PM
      it brings about the whole idea of master artist and apprentice doesnt it?

      I think its very much along the lines of graphic designer vs production artist vs production designer
      the graphic designer, does the concept and planning, the production artist execues it, another variation would be the production designer who takes the concept and look feel and then does the production and fills in the design if the designer has released some design hold

      producer vs creator
      I tend to think of the creators as the craft person
      in design the production artists are the crafts person

      how this would apply to ponoko
      is the end result merly a component to be assembled?
      is it the final product?
      If i design it but dont make it how can I consider it a craft of mine, it wold be a design of mine
      if I take that piece and thats it, its executed design
      if i take that piece and do more with it its crafting with it

      or think on it this way
      its evolution/growth from crafter to master artist
      (not saying any one is better than the other, they are different roles and both just as valuable)
      • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

        Mon, May 12, 2008 - 6:35 PM
        This seems more along the lines of a graphic artist. Upon closer inspection of the website that you can choose from a variety of templates to create whatever it is and/or use an original design. Therefore, either one is designing a specific piece to have the produced, or, one is using the design elements offered to supposedly create a 'unique' piece of work. Which leads to other sticky questions about other forms of this set-up both in creating physical items (outsourcing jewelery design) or web based items (blogs, imovie).
        • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

          Mon, May 12, 2008 - 7:10 PM
          right, those are "creating" but maybe for our purposes here, creating isn't craft. one can create without being a crafter; to craft means... well, we don't really have a hard definition here on this forum... we all seem more eager to declare what craft *isn't* than to put a fence around what craft is...
          • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

            Wed, May 14, 2008 - 6:10 PM
            I'll bite...
            to move the fence to what crafting is...
            from dictionary.com

            –noun
            1. an art, trade, or occupation requiring special skill, esp. manual skill: the craft of a mason.
            2. skill; dexterity: The silversmith worked with great craft.
            3. skill or ability used for bad purposes; cunning; deceit; guile.
            4. the members of a trade or profession collectively; a guild.
            5. a ship or other vessel.
            6. a number of ships or other vessels taken as a whole: The craft were warned of possible heavy squalls.
            7. aircraft collectively.
            8. a single aircraft.
            –verb (used with object)
            9. to make or manufacture (an object, objects, product, etc.) with skill and careful attention to detail.


            I think its safe to say take numbers 5,6,7,and 8 out of the running....

            it seems craft requires skill and hand work more-so than than mental work
            • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

              Thu, May 15, 2008 - 8:25 PM
              Let me just say, I love the dictionary!

              So with that definition in mind: Ponoko would not be craft. The intent is to allow others to design a product and have the manufacture of it be outsourced.
              • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

                Thu, May 15, 2008 - 9:55 PM
                Yeah, but with that definition, if you produced an iron-on design on your inkjet printer, that would not be craft either, because it was manufactured by Kinko's copy machine or whatever..
                • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

                  Sat, May 17, 2008 - 9:45 PM
                  but wouldnt the act of ironing the transfer to the shirt be the craft part?
                  the design and printing no, but the hot iron in had part yes??
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: is ponoko craft or not?

                    Sat, May 17, 2008 - 9:57 PM
                    ok, so the technology is not craft, but making use of technology for hand-made projects is craft... the laser printer and the avery iron-on transfer kit are technology, and the pre-made shirt is too... but you deciding where to put it on the shirt, applying hte heat for too long or too short or just right... that part is craft.

                    in that vein, ponoko too is craft...

                    ponoko is making use of technology to create things that you might use to make hand-made projects... the necklace and ring examples apply there... ponoko engineers laser cut the plastic parts, but the crafter assembled them together into jewelry

                    yes?
                    • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

                      Sun, May 18, 2008 - 9:43 PM
                      following that logic
                      yes

                      but...
                      I think more accurately a craft tool
                      since its doing a prep portion and not the actual crafting....
                      • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

                        Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:13 PM
                        Oh? Does the designer actually put the components together themselves? If that's the case, then I suppose I would consider that craft.

                        I think there is a broader definition of craft than offered in the dictionary. I keep thinking in terms of skill, and forgetting all about the culture of craft.
  • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

    Wed, May 21, 2008 - 1:04 PM
    I think that it's hard to define crafting solidly. It's like a gem that has many facets. Then, you get into the split between art and craft, and you open another set of debates. Then figuring out where design comes in leads to further debates. It's been interesting reading this thread. I don't think that art, craft, or design can ever fully be defined by the dictionary. There are too many gray areas. These are not words like "yes" or "no" that have definite meanings. There are many interpretations of each and then they blend with each other to create even more.

    Ironically, before Lobocita posted this, I thought I had an "understanding" of what each were. Now, seeing everyone else's views, I've discovered other facets to consider. Thanks for the great post. I love the gentle debating nature of it. No one is wrong, and each is thought provoking.
    • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

      Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:13 PM
      so thought-provoking I went back to the bookshelf for my big fat red Oxford Universal Dictionary, and excerpted some of the relevant entries:
      Art: I Skill
      1. Skill as the result of knowledge and practice
      5. The application of skill to subjects of taste, as poetry, music, etc. Perfection of workmanship or execution as an object in itself.
      6. Skill applied to the arts of imitation and design, the cultivation of these in its principles, practice, and results.
      II Anything wherein skill may be attained...
      1. Certain branches of learning which are of the nature of instruments for more advanced studies or for the work of life. Applied in the Middle Ages to the trivium (Grammar, logic and rhetoric) and the quadrivium (arithmetic, geometry, music, astronomy); called also the free or liberal arts.
      2. A body of rules for practice.
      3. An occupation in which skill is employed to gratify taste or produce what is beautiful. 1597

      Craft: [The transference to 'skill, art, occupation is English only.]
      1. Skill, power, force
      2. Intellectual power; skill, art;ability in planning or constructing, ingenuity, dexterity, occult art, magic.
      3. A device, artifice, or expedient. . . .
      6. A calling requiring special skill and knowledge; a manual art, a handicraft
      • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

        Wed, May 21, 2008 - 6:58 PM
        so is CRAFT then the related skill?
        and if so
        there is some skill involved in the creation of ponoko right?

        I guess my hang up is intellectual skill vs mechanical skill
        the mental part of design vs the hands on
        I tend to thinkof craft as the hands on
        and there seems to be limited hands on with ponoko
        • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

          Wed, May 21, 2008 - 7:41 PM
          by the way, ponoko has contacted me and let me know that they have been following this thread and are really interested in watching the conversation develop.

          i know i am gaining a lot from it, it is fun to roll these ideas around with wonderful crafty vixens and it is fun to see our perspectives be fine-tuned a bit just around one topic.

          meanwhile, i must just be a child of the 70s because the idea of crafting with laser cut acrylic or balsa is just so yummy... but i do feel "uncrafty" when i think about placing an order with ponoko. usually with a new craft, i am eager to open the box, can, package and start using it intuitively without always bothering to find out the directions.... usually if i think of something i want to craft, i get right on it... i can sew it cut it fold it dye it stamp it paint it glue it crush it color it trace it batik it crochet it knit it .... and voila, i am deep into crafting something right away.... with ponoko, while it is seductive, i haven't jumped right in for some reason....
          • Re: is ponoko craft or not?

            Thu, May 22, 2008 - 9:13 AM
            oh yeah. like all those little kiddie craft projects...
            is creating the foam mouse a craft? yes because my kid sits there and assembles this foam bit to that foam bit, and she has to beable to handle the glue properly

            is the creation of the foam bits craft?

            and some how Im seeing ponoko as the foam bits

            I think we are all interested in seeing this conversation develop
            I already have discovered my hang up on crafting vs design, and I didnt realize where it was exactly, I just knew in my head they werent the same thing

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